tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post5816328695897396446..comments2024-03-25T09:56:16.164+00:00Comments on An Awfully Big Blog Adventure: Why I'm Happy to Support Age-Banding of Children's Books by Emma BarnesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-86244340641192572922014-03-09T02:58:11.388+00:002014-03-09T02:58:11.388+00:00As both a bookseller and a mum who chooses books f...As both a bookseller and a mum who chooses books for a 4 year old, I would love the publishing world to embrace age banding. It works in the toy industry and takes all the guess work out of things for parents. It is a guide after all, not set in stone. Who has time to figure out clues when buying a gift?? I loved your post Emma, will share it on our Facebook page, cheers DebbieDebbiehttp://www.storymama.com.aunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-8227398837258518672014-02-18T12:54:49.589+00:002014-02-18T12:54:49.589+00:00Sue - hope you're not a "dying breed"...Sue - hope you're not a "dying breed", it's clear the children in your school benefit so much from your expertise and dedication. Certainly an "endangered breed", though, and in UK primary schools there are currently no librarians pretty much, and I'd love to see that change with the Society of Authors campaign, but I'm pessimistic. <br /><br />As to the idea of parents looking things up on the internet - the information is often not there either. For example, Greek mythology - I've been trying to work out online which books are best for different age groups and it would be so much easier if publishers were more explicit.Emma Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02718171070716804800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-48965810888142792122014-02-18T07:52:52.249+00:002014-02-18T07:52:52.249+00:00"Slower readers will feel embarrassed about r..."Slower readers will feel embarrassed about reading books with younger age-ranges on the cover"<br />I write for reluctant readers, for several different publishers, and the covers show a chronological age and a reading age. So the cover shows '12+' or whatever, and the image and title make it very obvious it is not for 8-year-olds, even if the reading age is 8. The labels about age are small, and not going to be spotted by peers who aren't looking for them. Stroppy Authorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16560035800075465845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-86674527959158148462014-02-17T20:46:40.087+00:002014-02-17T20:46:40.087+00:00Sorry, that's "letting anxious parents lo...Sorry, that's "letting anxious parents look it up"Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-68122576747960997872014-02-17T20:44:39.756+00:002014-02-17T20:44:39.756+00:00I'm one of that dying breed, the teacher-libra...I'm one of that dying breed, the teacher-librarian. Schools everywhere seem to have decided that saving money is more important than having someone who knows their subject in the library. And it's absolutely true that few classroom teachers have the time to gain the expertise they need. <br /><br />It's also, in my opinion, true that reluctant readers are less likely to read a book if they think it's below them. Bad enough they can't read books their friends are enjoying, but then they find one they can read and it's got a label on it saying it's for younger kids! <br /><br />Part of the problem is the majority of publishers who don't think there's money to be made by publishing high interest low-reading level books. Or if they do, they get it wrong, assuming that if it's thin, that will be enough, never mind the long words and the small print.<br /><br />I remember one publisher that got it all right, with a series of great crime novels fr reluctant readers, written by the top children's writers in the country, with great covers...and then age-banded it. I suspect they lost a lot of sales that way. I bought them, but covered the age bands. <br /><br />And then, age-bands assume normal readers of that age.<br /><br />Look, we're in the age of the Internet and smartphones and iPads. What's wrong with texting anxious arents look it up on the website?<br />Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-37517132284210770742014-02-17T18:27:13.658+00:002014-02-17T18:27:13.658+00:00A fine well-argued piece, Emma - especially now th... A fine well-argued piece, Emma - especially now that, sadly, primary teachers seem not to be taught about modern children's literature beyond a few key "literacy curriculum" names. Thanks. Penny Dolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16386668303428008498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-40781557321661200242014-02-17T14:52:04.392+00:002014-02-17T14:52:04.392+00:00Well, Emma, you clearly know what you are talking ...Well, Emma, you clearly know what you are talking about, because I still remember your 'Wolfie' being one of the few modern children's books that my son really responded to... He'd enjoyed being read classics like Charlotte's Web but nearly every more recent book left him cold/confused/disturbed. But 'Wolfie' hit the target perfectly. Proof that you know your stuff.Nick Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08191176209084540085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-73349894412548227512014-02-17T14:23:25.275+00:002014-02-17T14:23:25.275+00:00Rosy, I think you are spot on! And I too remember ...Rosy, I think you are spot on! And I too remember being read to at school - right up till the age of 16-17 - and it was wonderful and inclusive, as you say. It is also very important to differentiate between reading level and content.Ann Turnbullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06484265041343702129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-36189135221568213642014-02-17T14:06:27.700+00:002014-02-17T14:06:27.700+00:00You're right, Rosy, reading age and age approp...You're right, Rosy, reading age and age appropriate content are two separate issues. I don't know if this prompted Emma to write her post, but the debate has kicked off again recently as a result of Martin Chiltern's Telegraph piece about the age appropriateness of the content (specifically the swearing) in "When Mr Dog Bites". <br /><br />I’m only arguing the case for age guidance on content rather than reading age. I don’t think content guidance is having a detrimental effect on the film or DVD industry, either artistically or commercially, and if properly handled I don’t think it would have a detrimental effect on children’s publishing. And, as Emma argues, it would help people less familiar with children's books to make an informed choice and therefore more likely to buy or borrow a book for a child.Jonathan Emmetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413964991466780348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-73653237454870822972014-02-17T13:32:14.468+00:002014-02-17T13:32:14.468+00:00I suppose there's a couple of issues coming ou...I suppose there's a couple of issues coming out for me here. The idea of levels and advice for reading ability and the idea of reading or advice on content. That's the difference between books and films, isn't it? A film being a U doesn't necessarily mean it's aimed at 4 year olds but means that it won't contain horribly disturbing stuff. So there is less of the problem of kids or adults feeling humiliated watching a film that is U or a 12 - it's not saying that this is your "watching ability". And I suppose that's where the debate is more tricky for kids' books. <br /><br />I remember reading being diabolical in school and we were made to read to levels. I didn't find reading interesting or inspiring at school and the same books I loved at home could be chore at school (go figure). <br /><br />The best thing our teacher did was read to us. It was nothing to do with levels or reading or achievement. She found a book and read it out to the class at quiet times. I remember this was phenomenal. The kids would beg her to read on. Many of them rushed off and bought the book and it became a subject of shared joy and ownership in my class. And nothing to do with marks or anything off-putting. Nothing separated people on it - everyone owned it if you like. And we'd get to vote on which books we liked best and which she'd read to us next. <br /><br />All this being said - I also remember reading books at home and they had the usual puffin stuff or whatever written on. At home, I didn't associate this with reading levels and I didn't care about it at all - an old favourite was an old favourite - I didn't care whether it was for a 7 year old or a 10 year old or whatever. So, yes, I suspect that is because it was enjoyment only - removed from marks and levels and achievements and who was reading what faster or better than who.<br /><br />So - all this waffling aside - I do think this piece raises really good points. But maybe if there was a way to remove the idea of the banding from the school-associated "marking" or "levels" etc that would help too. But all that being said, I don't really know how that would be done. <br /><br />I personally think that teachers reading to kids like mine did would be a good thing - to be sheer enjoyment only and something shared, not competitive. Reading shouldn't be about competing really. It's a thing that everyone should own and allows access into everything in society really. We have lost the art of enjoying stories and oration together (if you like) and I do think that getting kids excited about stories is the way to get them excited about reading. <br /><br />All that being said - I'm not a writer for children, a mother or a teacher so this could all be nonsense. But I do see that a label on a book might - just might - be something a child ascribes to him or herself. So if there were a way to make it less like that in some way....Perhaps they should say Readers from 7-45 will enjoy this book! :)<br /><br />(PS I loved Despicable Me. That's not for kids!! No - it's MINE!)RosyBhttp://vulpeslibris.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-4993530702315712802014-02-17T13:15:27.684+00:002014-02-17T13:15:27.684+00:00Thanks authors Elen, Lucy, Ann for joining this de...Thanks authors Elen, Lucy, Ann for joining this debate. (Lucy, I thought of Atticus when writing the post as an example of Greek myth made accessible to younger children.)<br /><br />The Hot Key pie chart is interesting - I wonder how parents are finding it - can they interpret it easily? The idea of a book sticker is interesting too.<br /><br />The main point against seems to be that explicit reading ages can humiliate children - they will always want to "read up". I'm not sure this is so, and if so it applies to schools rather than private home reading - because schools are where you may be observed reading by your peers. Ironically books in schools are often given educational "levels" anyway.<br />Emma Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02718171070716804800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-18844643151318129732014-02-17T12:50:16.435+00:002014-02-17T12:50:16.435+00:00Thank you so much for so many thoughtful responses...Thank you so much for so many thoughtful responses! (I was afraid I'd meet a tide of rage on this one, and I'm glad even those on the other side of the argument have been receptive. Like Jonathan, I think the argument in the past has sometimes inspired more heat than light.)<br /><br />CJ - I'm interested in the points you make from the perspective of a parent whose child does actually have some reading difficulties. I think it's a good point that age guidance can actually be helpful in pointing those children to books that will interest them, and which may be easier in style.<br /><br />Lily - I remember those puffin books too! "May appeal to a sporty girl or boy of 10plus who is also interested in wildlife..." seems quaint, but actually quite helpful!Emma Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02718171070716804800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-43037273054667102702014-02-17T12:20:18.555+00:002014-02-17T12:20:18.555+00:00I’m also with Emma on this. It’s an important issu...I’m also with Emma on this. It’s an important issue and it was depressing to see the way in which the debate was conducted a few years back, with one side (those authors opposed to age guidance) hectoring those on the other. It’s great to see Emma addressing the issue in such a calm and reasoned way.<br /><br />I think the the assumption that putting age guidance on a book can only restrict a child’s reading needs challenging. As a children’s author, I’m often asked to recommend books for other people’s children and when Christmas or a child’s birthday is coming up, friends often suggest that I give a suitable book to their child as a present. I’d been doing this on a regular basis for one friend’s children, but a few years back we hit a bit of a hiccup. The friend had told me that her 10-year-old daughter loved Louis Sachar’s Waysides School books, so I offered to get her daughter Sachar’s novel “Holes” as a Christmas present. The friend got back to me and told me that, having read some of the book’s customer reviews on Amazon, she didn’t think the book’s setting and subject matter was suitable for a 10-year-old (a lot of the story is set in a correctional labour camp for adolescent boys) and that, while she didn’t doubt that it was an excellent book, she wanted to preserve her daughter’s innocence for a little longer. I told her that the customer reviews gave a misleading impression of the book’s content and mentioned that my wife and I had read the book as a bedtime story to our son when he was 8 and that he’d hugely enjoyed it. However the friend was adamant the book was unsuitable for her own child, so I ended up buying her daughter another book instead. A few months later, I was trying to find a book for the same child’s birthday when I noticed that The Red House web site included “Holes” among it’s 9+ age recommendations. Knowing that her daughter was still keen on Sachar’s other books, I went back to the friend and asked her if she’d accept that this showed that the book was age-appropriate. She did, so I gave her daughter the book and she adored it.<br /><br />If I’d have thought of it at the time, what I could have done was pointed out that the film of “Holes” was a PG certificate, which shows that , in the judgement of BBFC, the story’s content was suitable for children of 8 years and older.<br /><br />The BBFC certification system demonstrates that applying an age rating does not necessarily narrow the appeal of a story. The most popular film at UK cinemas last year was “Despicable Me 2”. The film appealed to cinema-goers of all ages, despite it’s U certificate indicating that its content was suitable for children 4 years and older. I know that there are people (adults and children) that don’t go to see U certificate films like the “Despicable Me” movies, “The Incredibles” or even “The Artist”, because of the 4+ age rating and I’m sure that there will be children that will not want to read books labelled 4+ or 8+ for the same reason. That is their loss, they are victims of their own prejudice. Age banding is often rejected on the basis that we have to recognise and accommodate such prejudices – but prejudices ought to be challenged rather than accommodated.<br /><br />“The Lego Movie” has just come out in the UK to rave reiviews. It’s a U certificate. Despite the 4+ age guidance label this denotes, both my 12-old-daughter and 17-year-old son are keen to see it, as am I. Is it really so unreasonable to suggest that children are capable of taking the same nuanced approach to books as they already take to film and DVDs? If the anti-age-banding lobby can’t tolerate a numerical banding system (4+, 8+, 12+) then why not adopt the similarly banded BBFC system (U, PG, 12) the meaning of which is widely understood?Jonathan Emmetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413964991466780348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-66055856287674540992014-02-17T12:18:01.247+00:002014-02-17T12:18:01.247+00:00A really excellent piece, Emma. I was thinking abo...A really excellent piece, Emma. I was thinking about this only last week, when I picked up a book which looked as if it was for 8+, but which I later discovered had content suitable for much older kids. Part of that confusion was due to the publisher's blurb, though, which was misleading in the extreme. I do like the Hot Key pie chart idea - that seems an easily decodable solution, and acceptable to all sides of this ongoing debate. You're entirely right - the main thing is to help book buyers to make an informed choice, and to get the books into the hands of as many child readers as possible. Lucy Coatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774389681477698245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-73600638476845171792014-02-17T11:47:28.290+00:002014-02-17T11:47:28.290+00:00"What age is it suitable for?" is what p..."What age is it suitable for?" is what people always ask me when considering buying one of my books. I think it's a perfectly reasonable question and in a one-to-one conversation I always suggest an age-range. I do have slight reservations about age recommendations printed on books for the reasons that others have given, and also for the more subtle feeling that it makes them look like part of the education system rather than reading for pleasure (does that make sense?) But I do think we need to do everything possible to make it easier for people to choose books for children, so I would not object to age guidance. Betty's idea of a peel-off sticker sounds good. I now have my website divided into Older, Middle and Young sections, which I hope helps a bit without giving actual ages. Ann Turnbullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06484265041343702129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-16020461692724520422014-02-17T11:38:34.935+00:002014-02-17T11:38:34.935+00:00I see where you are coming from with the sticker i...I see where you are coming from with the sticker idea but I think the secondhand market for books is so important that I do want it on the book. (see reference to guiding charity shop volunteers above)Donnako1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-62549956588370261592014-02-17T11:33:49.851+00:002014-02-17T11:33:49.851+00:00I echo that I found this piece persuasive when my ...I echo that I found this piece persuasive when my instincts would be against age indicators.<br /><br />Another concern though is the publisher giving a mis-leading age indicator. I recently gave a friend's 4yo a new edition of one of Enid Blyton's Amelia Jane collections. I hesitated when I saw '7+' printed on the back but went with it based on my own memories, the clues on looking at it (as described above)& knowledge of the family. I hate to think of many 4-7yos missing out cos it's marked as '7+' and of many 7yos getting it but rejecting as too babyish.<br /><br />While I accept the arguments for the small, subtle indicator, I feel inclined to something more descriptive emphasising that kids will enjoy a wide range of books at any age often reading simpler books to themselves & having deeper books read to them on the same day.Donnako1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-81535320151575695222014-02-17T10:58:22.365+00:002014-02-17T10:58:22.365+00:00Very well-argued sensible post, Emma. In the 70s -...Very well-argued sensible post, Emma. In the 70s - which many people consider a golden age for children's publishing - puffin books edited by Kay Webb, who published just about every classic children's author of the time, always had age guidance. Not on the cover as far as I remember, but on the inside page where the synopsis or blurb was. I imagine many of the authors now objecting to age branding grew up with these books and I wonder if it had any impact on their reading. I think any age guidance will always be for adults, rather than for children, who will read whatever takes their fancy so long as they are allowed to (and not judged for it). Personally I think the gender branding of children's books is way more harmful than age banding although I can appreciate arguments against age guidance. Bring back librarians!Lilyhttp://www.lilyhyde.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-76925369364837011372014-02-17T10:38:12.542+00:002014-02-17T10:38:12.542+00:00As an adult trying to buy for friend's childre...As an adult trying to buy for friend's children I support some guidance on age. It all gets a little muddy and I desperately want to buy something they will enjoy and not necessarily fall back on the classics. However, as a child I had a reading age beyond my years, but refused to read a book for older readers as indicated by the age guidance. Whilst I was capable and would have enjoyed the story I didn't want to be apart from my contemporaries. This is something I would have been far less aware of without the guidance on the cover. However, might the answer be a guidance sticker that helps people select in shops but can be removed before gifting the book?Bettynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-28511982490560864962014-02-17T09:19:45.039+00:002014-02-17T09:19:45.039+00:00I do agree, an have thought so since the debate ex...I do agree, an have thought so since the debate exploded. The age range is a guide, not a rule, and you know whether your child is likely to be reading above or below it. In terms of the less able reader, there are plenty of books now - David Walliams, the Wimpy Kids books, which are relatively easy to read but would be graded at a higher age band in terms of interest and appeal, so they do a good job of dealing with that 'reading down' issue. In my experience, poorer readers don't necessarily enjoy books aimed at younger readers just because they can access them more easily. My slightly dyslexic daughter would rather struggle through a Marcus Sedgewick or Patrick Ness than read Mr Majeika even though that would be much more appropriate to her decoding ability. The advantages of age interest/appropriate guidance for adults buying for a child seem to me to far outweigh the disadvantages.C.J.Busbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12288574235370421625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-61248402635848687532014-02-17T09:15:27.867+00:002014-02-17T09:15:27.867+00:00I'd really like to hear more examples about th...I'd really like to hear more examples about the experiences of kids using the accelerated reader scheme - I like the anecdote in your post Emma, and would be really interested in hearing others experience of the labelling.Playing by the bookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02761644438775249830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-70614605209917965312014-02-17T08:52:51.945+00:002014-02-17T08:52:51.945+00:00I really like Hot Key books' solution. They ha...I really like Hot Key books' solution. They have a little pie chart on the back with the sort of things the book contains. <br />There's no number anywhere, but it does provide useful guidance.<br /><br />I don't like the idea of a number, mostly because of seeing a young relative of mine struggle to learn to read. He was very, very aware of the readings levels (educational books have them) of his friends compared to his own. It was a source of very real humiliation for him.Elen Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00445201005486291612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-30449152460421043192014-02-17T08:35:55.063+00:002014-02-17T08:35:55.063+00:00Playing by the book - I think you're right, th...Playing by the book - I think you're right, there are different audiences with different needs. I do feel that the arguments have been skewed in a way because so many of the opinions come from very "literary" folk, who are so familiar with books, authors, how to read covers, probably have access to good advice - and in short understand all the "clues" that can actually be really tricky to work out.<br /><br />I suppose one of the key points I'm trying to make is that we really need to get more books into the hands of more kids - and when parents say they want this kind of guidance, it's not fair to ignore that.Emma Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02718171070716804800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-25646947404253808402014-02-17T08:20:26.289+00:002014-02-17T08:20:26.289+00:00A persuasive piece.
I think I'm realising th...A persuasive piece. <br /><br />I think I'm realising that age banding means something quite different to those whose experience of books is very different to mine. Because I'm immersed in books I can read the clues better than those who haven't got the same background. Is it a debate about supporting those who rarely buy books rather than worrying about concerns of those who buy lots of books? (I know it's not really that black and white). <br /><br />Examples of age banding I've found helpful are ones where it includes listeners as well as independent readers, if you like an "interest level" as well as an independent reader level. A range rather than a single digit (I know a range is implied by the + following the number)Playing by the bookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02761644438775249830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7780182174577095197.post-31205324127395005862014-02-17T08:16:37.933+00:002014-02-17T08:16:37.933+00:00Interesting - I can see it helps the book buying a...Interesting - I can see it helps the book buying adults. But I do recall being 8 years old and having my auntie buy me James and the Giant Peach, and when I saw '7+' on the back, I was mortally offended! In my view, I thought that this implied that it was for children younger than me, therefore below me. Children like their books (and characters) to be slightly older than themselves, something to aspire to. Reading a book with a younger reading age than your own feels like 'dumbing down' to a child. I know it's silly, but that's my recollection...!<br />Heather Dyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16663116147353986746noreply@blogger.com